Author Topic: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system  (Read 4811 times)

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essal

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2016, 12:29:48 PM »
The moment you put any weight on your body, you start do break down muscles and cause compression of your spine. For every step you take, with say 10kg on your shoulders, you get a multiplied impact on your body. Running causes a higher multiplier and jumping/landing is horrible. Your armor is already too much weight, even if you put it into a lightweight JPC... Add stuff like a helmet, rifle, ammo, water etc. and any biomechanic researcher would freak out. This is why USMC has some "fireman poles" on their trucks to prevent this impact when exiting.

As MarManVelez said, you can't just work out your lumbar pad or spine more, cause that doesn't work. As for weight, it will still all be there, but you split it between your hips and shoulders, rather than shoulders alone. The weight is fucking you up, proper load carriage and distribution just fucks you up less- at the cost of mobility reduction. The reduction depends on how and where the weight is distributed.

Denmark adopted the Tyr Pico with X-frame for all their soldiers AFAIK.
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Gear Dynamics

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2016, 02:14:57 PM »
essal, I get your argument. You don't need to explain it any further. I would argue (in simplistic terms) that the more strength you have and the more conditioned your body is, the more resilient your joints and skeletal structure will be when adding additional weight to your body. Your argument makes the assumption that every body reacts to an increase in weight the same, which simply isn't the case. Stronger, fit individuals will be able to carry more added weight than weaker individuals, without adverse effects to their body. Their joints, muscles, tendons etc. have all been conditioned to accept more weight, while still functioning through their normal range of motion. Of course there will be a threshold where the weight or the duration of activity becomes too much, even for the strongest person, but that is completely preventable.

Here's a typical infantry rifleman load out in the CAF:

10x 30rnd mags - 5kg
2x Frag - 0.8kg
2x Smoke - 1kg
2L Water - 2kg
Armour IIIA - 3kg
Plates (ceramic) - 5kg
Helmet - 1.6kg
Nylon Gear w/Pouches & Misc equip - 3.3kg
Rifle (C7A2) - 3.3kg

Total 25kg or approx. 55lbs. 20.1kgs are carried directly on the torso and waist. With a PC and Belt setup, only about 11kg are directly impinging on the back. The rest of the weight is likely already along the belt line (use ManMarVelez's photos as a visual ref), in the arms or on the head. I will grant you the fact that a system like this could help transfer some of that 11kgs down to the waist line, but not all of it, especially when moving or adopting any position other than standing straight up and down.
 
 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 08:42:27 PM by Gear Dynamics »

ManMarVelez

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2016, 03:18:02 PM »
I am agree with Essal and Gear Dynamics too. I prefer to load warbelt or LBS, but someone had to carry huge load. I agreed, that  athlets joints are  stronger than 18-years old nerd, but in our army too many nerds and old mans-( Somebody carry MAPs with 100 and 200 rounds belts e.t.c. I think, if this system can reduce for example 6 kg from 15 kg spine loads, it is good system-)

essal

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2016, 03:37:40 PM »
GD, sure, a strong body helps, but it doesn't eliminate problems related to load carriage. I think that injury prevention is one of the most overlooked parts of being a soldier, and especially in-the-field injury prevention or non-admin type of prevention.

Not the study about back pain and frames, but this is a good study on military load carriage. Page 35 (45 in the pdf) and out talk about related medical issues and treatment. I'd recommend reading it, it's interesting. Some of the referenced studies are also very interesting if you can find them/access them.

http://www.usariem.army.mil/assets/docs/publications/articles/2010/LoadCarriagePDF.pdf
Military Operations
A REVIEW OF HISTORICAL, PHYSIOLOGICAL,
BIOMECHANICAL, AND MEDICAL ASPECTS
Joseph Knapik, ScD, and Katy Reynolds, MD
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Gear Dynamics

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2016, 08:43:52 PM »
I'll have a read. Thanks.

mogensbeck

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2016, 08:11:35 AM »
In 2013 Denmark changed the old bodyarmor system to TYR Tactical PICO with the xframe for all soldiers in the Danish Defence. Given to both regular and SOF units. Frogmen use SS Plateframe because the PICO gains 2kilo weight when it is wet.

Denmark is TYR Tactical biggest customer



Denmark did extensive test of the soldiers in 2009 in Afganistan Helman provins.

The avarage infantrysoldier during exercise in Denmark has around 15-20kilo depending on function. In Afganistan the avarage infantrysoldier weighed around 35kilo.

In ISAF the soldiers could no longer depend on APC/IFF/Tanks to cover them, the IED thread inceases and soldiers needed to carry ECM jammers(25kilos) pr section. Minesweepers and laders + recoilsriffels, MG3 ect to give firepower. The way that soldiers trained war at home was not the way war was fought in Greenzone.





The Danish PT. test was changed 3years ago from a more simple PT test to be more focus on the Core of the body to prevent back injuries. Also making the test unisex so it dident matter if you are female or male the test is the same. Woman in Denmark serve in combat units.

The Xframe is a very complicated system that requies alot of training and understanding to adjust it correctly so many Danish soldiers are not using the frames or it is not set up correctly.
The Dynamic Weight Distribution System from Source is a more soldierproof systemet but the vest is crap.

Gear Dynamics

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2016, 11:01:41 AM »
Mogen, thanks for the post. Interesting stuff. Looks like Tyr scored big with the Danish military.

The load I listed above, is the load I carried in Kandahar in 2008, as an infantry section 2IC. I still try and emulate that during training here in Canada, but admittedly my weight probably comes up lighter. Aside from support weapons, the next heaviest thing is probably radios, which I left off of my list.

Our PT test also changed in the last few years, and is standard CAF wide, regardless of age or gender. Its done in PT strip and it's not a very hard test to meet the minimums, which is unfortunate. This year however, all infantry will do an altered version that is preceded by a 5km weighted march (shuffle) and then immediately into the test with fighting order on.

Thr3Six

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2016, 01:02:14 AM »
The Tyr stuff might look cool and offer better support, but I certainly wouldn't want to wear that in afghanistan when walking extreme distances because of the heat.


GD, I was at Kaf in July 08 and we built up Fob Ramrod out west until we left in Jun 09. I loved me that Fob Wilson ice cream! Hockey was fun to watch at the boardwalk. :D

Bootcat

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2016, 09:58:04 AM »
For a French perspective, no weight distribution here, and 45L packs tend to be used without buckling the belt. Total carried weight in Afghanistan did come to 30-45kg on shoulders mostly. Lots of spine compression injuries as expected, even with adapted fitness training.
The way most armies work is, the moment you gain some breathing space on the soldier's performance, it will be taken by additional gear to be carried "just in case". Looking at the historical perspective outlined in that PDF, that trend is not going away.
Spine offloading also brings physical performance gains besides injury reduction (just like in backpacks) so I expect these systems to become mainstream in the future.

ManMarVelez

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Re: Panzerklein dynamic load carriage system
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2016, 03:33:25 PM »
please, delete it
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 03:36:10 PM by ManMarVelez »